Episode 3: The Future of Procurement Leadership with Savita Mace

Sian Lloyd – 00:00:02:

Hello and welcome to Powering Procurement, a podcast by Atamis, where we unpack the world of procurement and supply chain management with the help of leading experts. I’m your host, Sian Lloyd, and this is the Atamis resident expert, Gareth Burch.

Gareth Burch – 00:00:18:

With nearly 20 years of experience in procurement, I may be billed as the expert, but believe me, I’m here to learn too.

Sian Lloyd – 00:00:25:

Each episode with our expert guests will see us diving into the world of procurement, understanding the opportunities and challenges facing the sector.

Gareth Burch – 00:00:34:

And we’ll explore easy wins and longer term strategies to help you rise to the challenge of driving value through your work while showing the power of procurement.

Sian Lloyd – 00:00:45:

So let’s get started. Welcome to Powering Procurement. Our guest today is Savita Mace, Chief Procurement Officer at University Hospital Sussex NHS Foundation Trust, one of the largest acute trusts in the UK. Savita leads a team of 80 professionals who are responsible for delivering value, quality and efficiency across a healthcare system that serves more than 1.5 million outpatient appointments, A&E visits and surgery cases every year. Her role is pivotal in ensuring critical healthcare services are well supported through strategic procurement.

Gareth Burch – 00:01:27:

Savita brings over 20 years of global procurement experience, having held leadership roles at major organizations like AstraZeneca, Roche, and Sony. In addition to her leadership roles, Savita also a passionate mentor, serving as the UK lead for mentoring at CIPS, where she helped shape the next generation of procurement professionals. Welcome Savita.

Savita Mace – 00:01:52:

Thank you, Gareth. Thank you, Sian. Nice to be here.

Sian Lloyd – 00:01:55:

It’s great to meet you, Savita. And we’re really looking forward to hearing all about your extensive career in procurement. But before we get on to that, I know that you’re a mum and that you have said that’s the most important job to you. And I wouldn’t argue it’s certainly a huge job. But we really want to dive deeply into procurement on the Powering Procurement podcast. So I’m going to begin by asking you about your long and extensive career in that area and how you actually got into it in the first place. You know, we hear about people saying, oh, I fell into procurement. Was that what happened with you?

Savita Mace – 00:02:32:

No, actually, I actually forged a career in procurement. Apart from those companies that you listed, Gareth, I also worked for the hospitality industry. So I worked for Hilton. And one of my first job is within oil and gas. So I was paid £60 a week to count stock on an oil rig with one of the gas companies off the coast of Venezuela. It was an amazing job for me. Back then, it was a lot of money. I know I’m going to sound really old, but it was great because I was doing my degree in marketing and operations at night. I had to work full time in the day. I was really struggling to make ends meet. And they asked me to count stock, count the PP, count the stock on the platform. And just being on an oil rig is just amazing. It’s an amazing achievement already at 19. And I get to see off the coast of Venezuela, oil refinery. I get to see production. People are talking to me about, if I don’t calm the stock, right, they’re going to have 7 million of downtime. At 19, you don’t really understand what that means. But I got fascinated about what does this world mean? So what happens after the gas is extracted, after the oil is produced? What happens? And I think because I was working there in a trainee and a management trainee role, I said to them, I want to get into buying. I think I could be an amazing buyer. Luckily or unluckily for him, there was a guy that was off work for a year and they asked me, would you like to be an assistant buyer for a year? But you’re going to have to study as well. And I said, this is my career. I know what I want to do for the rest of my life. And at 20, I started studying CIPS and working and going out to count stock. I didn’t increase my salary, unfortunately, but that’s kind of how I forged a career in buying. And back then it was called purchasing. It was called stores, inventory analysis. So I was called an inventory clerk, counting the stock. So yeah, so I did not fall into it. It was a chosen career path for me.

Gareth Burch – 00:04:43:

I’ve got to be fair. I absolutely fell into it. And falling into it, I think I was 20 years old. So similar age falling into it. Well, for me falling into it and I’ve got to be honest after falling into it, it was one of those professions absolutely loved. And I think, I ended up. I started my CIPS study when I was 22, 21 22. And that bit to be fair. I’m not a huge bookworm and that one was a struggle but worth every minute and hour spent to get that CIPS status. Are there any learnings from your experience in procurement roles? Throughout which have helped you and carry you forward with your profession into that leadership.

Savita Mace – 00:05:35:

That’s a great question, Gareth. I think my learnings, Gareth, from being paid $60 a week, luckily I’m paid more now, I can assure you that, is to have fun and be myself. And I think sometimes in our personal lives, we reinvent ourselves for people or for jobs, et cetera. And I did do some of that, both for people and for career. But as I got older, as I got more and more leadership roles, I started to be comfortable with who I am. I can’t change my accent. I can’t change the color of my skin. But I can use it to my advantage. Actually, I was going for the Sony role, and you know Rachael Legg very well. And I have an identical twin, so I told my twin, I’m going for this leadership role. It’s really important. And she said to me, but you have the emotional intelligence of a teaspoon. How are you going to lead people, this big team? And I said, that’s so true. I haven’t really developed that side of my leadership. Luckily, my twin is a psychologist and she helped me in that area. And so I suppose for me, the lesson learned was to stay focused, so visionary leadership, to really harness what emotional intelligence is. But also one of the biggest thing for me in leadership is about how I make people feel about themselves in my presence. So my legacy should be, like you said, Sian, I would like to sit in my rocking chair at 80 and say, I’ve done two things really well. I was a good mother and I made people feel better about themselves wherever I was. What about you, Gareth?

Sian Lloyd – 00:07:16:

Yeah, what about you, Gareth?

Savita Mace – 00:07:18:

What are some of your lessons in your colorful career so far?

Gareth Burch – 00:07:23:

Yeah. I got to be fair. For me, it’s the relationship with people. And I absolutely agree with what you were saying about inventing yourselves. I was at a company for a long time. When I fell into procurement, I was known. And then you kind of get pushed into this role. And I felt that I was reinventing myself. I was trying to push myself into more of that Senior position and trying to change. And I absolutely agree. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve gone, do you know what? I don’t care. I want to be me. And actually being able to go out onto a floor in any business and be able to speak to someone senior or someone junior and they see you for you is such a valuable experience, not just for you, but for the individuals. It isn’t this on a pedestal up at a C-suite type level. It’s actually, we are approachable people. And we want to know the issues, the people on the ground, the guys doing the day in, day out, we need to know what’s blocking them and hurting them and how we can help them. And you can’t do it when you’re up in an ivory tower, not a pedestal, an ivory tower. You’re too far removed. And this is one of the things I’ve found, again, as I’ve gotten older within my career, I’m like, do you know what? It is exactly what you said, being you. And sometimes it’s, I do struggle to have the boiling pretend otherwise, I struggle because you want to give that professional opinion, but then you want to be relatable and don’t get me wrong, it knocked down to the latest jargon, sub-bro and all of that, but very much more just being approachable, being relatable, knowing something in common to build those relationships. And then it’s just really helped me in my last role massively because you could go into a board meeting. You could go back to the team and just articulate it and they know where you’re coming from. And one of the other ones, one of the other ones is how I actually live my life. And it’s actually a leadership model and it’s the circles of influence. Can I control it? Yes or no? No. Can I influence it? Yes or no? If it’s no again, stop, pause, walk away. And that is one of the most powerful models I’ve learned during my career. And it actually started with SIPs, with the micro macro model. And it was, oh, hang on, I can’t control it. So why should I care about it? And then I think it’s Lewin’s Circles of Influence. I was like, oh, hang on, there’s an influence in here. Do you know what? I should probably think of influence rather than can I control it? Yes or no? Ta-ra. Actually, now can I influence it? And honestly, it’s paid dividends for my career.

Savita Mace – 00:10:29:

Gareth, it’s great that you shared that. It makes you quite vulnerable when you share that level of detail about yourself. And I mean, when we’ve met before, I could see that about you, the authentic side. You know, you’re credible, you know, like me, we’re credible professionals. We know what we’re doing. We know our stuff. And I think for a big part, for me, because you and I qualified with CIPS so early in our careers, we were the experts in the room. People recognize us, like they’re professionally qualified, they have university master’s degrees, et cetera. But that’s not what I brought to the table. The qualifications on paper isn’t what we bring to the table. It’s much more than that. And I really loved how you articulated yours. Thank you.

Gareth Burch – 00:11:14:

No, thank you.

Sian Lloyd – 00:11:15:

And I’ve certainly learned a lot from both of you there. And it’s really great to get the backstory as well. And, you know, Phil, we’re understanding something about the people here as well as procurement and the sector you’re in, which, of course, is so important. And I suppose in my role as host, I’m certainly not an expert. But what I really, really wanted to focus on, Savita, from what you were saying in that part was, you know now who you are, what your approach is. Was there a particular moment that that happened? Was there a point in your career that you came to that conclusion?

Savita Mace – 00:11:52:

I can’t pinpoint a particular point in my career where I thought I’m going to be me now. But what I could say is that in the last two years since I’ve been in the public sector, so 22 years in private sector, I come into the NHS. And no surprise, my twin sister convinced me because she was in the NHS all her career. Actually, it really humbled me because for the first time, and you touched on it in your introduction, for the first time in my private sector bubble, I am with the patient in the elevator, in the toilets. If I go up to the wards to meet my stakeholder, I have to wait for them because they’re operating. And I realized that this is the real world, this is the most vulnerable people, not well, expecting to have a service. And my role in this trust and for my ICS is pivotal. It’s pivotal. If people don’t get what they need for a surgery, for an operation, for treatment, outpatient, whatever it is, it’s on me. The buck stops with me. And it’s very accountable and responsible. And sometimes it’s a little bit overwhelming where the consultants call you and say, I’m waiting for something. I need it at four o’clock. I have no control over some of the logistics, right? The supply chain is vast. But it was really humbling coming into the NHS and not having that buffer. Because as you say, I have always been removed from the end customer, from the patients. In pharma, four steps away. At Sony, I’m seven steps away. You know, the supply chain, it could be four tiers. So this is the first time I am so close to the end patient. Well, I am close to the end patient or the end customer if you’re in a corporate world. And it’s really sobering. It’s really, really sobering. And I suppose I don’t have the luxury to be somebody else. Sian, I really don’t have the time, the luxury. I don’t even have any space to be creative about who I want to be. So I have to be myself. I have to use skills that I don’t have, stuff that I have, and I have to perform. This is real people that we’re treating. So showing up as myself has been the best thing. I can do. People seem to like it. Obviously, a lot of times I hear, that’s a private sector mentality. Because that’s the only experience I have. And I hear that a lot from people. Not in a bad way, but in a, yeah, you haven’t got used to how we think yet. But I welcome it, you know. So in terms of your question, I suppose being myself, this is the first time in my career that I’ve been 100% myself. I’ve been about 70 or 80 or 50 in other jobs. This is the first time 100% myself.

Sian Lloyd – 00:14:57:

And thank you for being so candid and so honest with us as well. You know, it’s absolutely fantastic to hear. And, you know, Gareth, I’d like to know, is that something that you can relate to from what Savita was talking about, the consumer, the end customer, really, that we don’t always perhaps talk about in the procurement supply chain?

Gareth Burch – 00:15:19:

It’s definitely something I can relate to, to be honest. So in the roles I’ve had, I’ve always been removed. I had one opportunity early on where I went into a customer-facing environment. I was very much wet behind the ears. Early, like maybe six months into my procurement career, I was miles off. And as part of it, I was sent out to learn what our stakeholders want, which was a great experience. Going to our stakeholders, what do you want from procurement? And like most procurement professionals, when you start off, it’s normally like a stationary contract. And it was exactly that for me. And I went started speaking to people in our branch network for the company I worked for. And one day in one of the branches, I had the pleasure of meeting an unhappy customer. And it genuinely was a pleasure because… It gave me more respect for the people frontline. And this obviously is nothing like Savita’s world. This is, it was private sector, but they’re frontline. A disgruntled customer, how do you help them? And even just how the staff, just taking them aside, making them a cup of coffee, look, someone’s not here right now. You see that side. I’m that far removed. I never see it. So for me, it was great to see. But then it’s almost you can see the work procurement does to then help deliver to the end customer, the end consumer. But yeah, I’ve always worked where I’m so far removed. And you hear from a focus group with customers, which has gone through a product area, which has gone through marketing, which has gone through another, which has then landed a procurement with we’d like these requirements. And yes, it’s driven from the end consumer, the end customer, but we’re not involved. So it is really interesting to hear how, like most of us, when we visit the NHS, Savita’s got to wait. But it’s great to hear. It’s great because being able to experience that, see what people are going through, helps procurement get better, become better, and as leaders start educating the next generation of all the customer. Because without the customer within or the consumer in any environment we don’t have jobs So it’s a massive important thing and you can’t underestimate it.

Sian Lloyd – 00:17:58:

Savita, I really feel I’m getting to know you a little bit during this podcast, which is fantastic. And obviously, I’ve been looking into your background a bit before meeting you, doing a little bit of research. And you have gone from oil and gas to hospitality to manufacturing to pharma now to health. It’s really, really impressive. Where do we start? What do we focus on? Perhaps if we can focus, first of all, on pharma. And it would just be great to hear some of your experiences from your time at AstraZeneca.

Savita Mace – 00:18:30:

Sure. Thank you. I mean, AstraZeneca is only one of the great experiences that I’ve had. And I had a really good leader, so John Dixon. And you all know John Dixon very well. A really visionary leader. Serious guy on the face of it, but a gentle soul. But in terms of visionary and compassionate leadership. That’s where I kind of saw it from. And it was inspirational to me, actually. And I’ve had many opportunities, as you’ve just kind of uncovered, to work in many industries. And what procurement gives us, and Gareth and I have done this, which is we have transferable skills. To the core, what we do can be done in any company, any sector, any country. I’ve worked in many countries. And in pharma, you have very highly regulated due-diligence, four tiers of the supply chain. Active pharma ingredient in supply chain, et cetera. And that was really eye-opening for me. And the people at AstraZeneca were really nice. Unfortunately, I didn’t get to meet a lot of people in person because COVID hit. And a lot of the teams, obviously, were working remotely. But you did get that sense of you know people really well because you see each other on a screen, et cetera. But I want to reflect on the kind of lessons I learned from AstraZeneca in terms of, as I said, early in my career, Rachael Legg. And she’s most of you know her. Rachael Legg is still somebody I hold in high regard. Not only because she looked beyond my CV for my first leadership role, but she was doing skill-based hiring. She was doing growth mindset, you know, 15, 20 years ago. And in my time with AstraZeneca, in my first interview, actually, I asked them to change the interview twice because my baby was going to start nursery. And I said to them, do you mind if I come on a Monday instead? Because I really want to see him and I want to come at a certain time. And they were so lovely about it. And when I got there and the interviewer said to me, she said, are you okay? It’s very emotional to put your child, your baby into nursery. And that was one of the first things I thought, this is a growth mindset company. This is a company that respects a diverse pool of talent. And this is a company that respects that you bring your whole self to work. You don’t just bring somebody with a lot of qualifications, a lot of experience. So those sorts of lessons that I’ve learned from AstraZeneca, from the people there, and I think under John’s leadership, that’s what I saw. And I’ve kind of transferred that here. So in my team, I have 11 different languages. I have people from all walks of life. I’ve hired people from the army, a barista, I’ve hired all sorts of people since I’ve been here. One, because I look beyond the CV. I want people who can be adaptable, people who can be innovative, but people who have lived many lives. Yeah, not just… We all sound the same, we all do the same, we all look the same. That’s boring. That’s not going to bring innovation. So, yeah, so my experience in pharma, it was really, really good. I went to many manufacturers and audited many manufacturers, and it’s very different. So in my early career, I had to buy live chickens. You know, I go from buying live chickens, Gareth, to buying solar spares for the platforms, to active pharma ingredient to horse blood, to all sorts of things. So this career is so diverse, it takes you all over the world. And I think the lessons learned certainly at AstraZeneca was compassionate leadership. But you hire people who bring their whole selves to work. Gareth, what about you?

Gareth Burch – 00:22:25:

I genuinely echo everything you’ve just said. I often… I’ve been a bit honest with some of my teams in the past, where I’ve said, if I have a team of Gareths, We all get stuff, though. But we won’t be, we won’t drive innovation. We won’t spot some of the areas we need to spot. And it’s bringing diverse skill sets together. If we’re all the same. We’re going to miss something important. We’re all heading in the right direction. Everyone has unique abilities, unique skills. And how do you get the most out of people to make them happy, to foster a great culture and bring in and attract more talent? So I genuinely echo what you’ve said and to hear your experience, particularly with AstraZeneca and that arranging your interview around you personally, what is such a nice culture to be initially exposed to, even just at the interview stage. It’s warm. It’s really warm. It’s warm. I’m pivoting slightly on the leadership side. So obviously your career, you’ve worked in multiple areas. How has your leadership in these areas? Helped you foster supplier relationships. Because you’ve obviously, working from manufacturing to pharma, you’ve got upstream, downstream. There’s a lot in there and there’s lots of stakeholders you have to work with and manage, and it’s got to be really difficult. But do your leadership skills, are they easily transferable?

Savita Mace – 00:24:07:

My leadership skills adapting has been something that was new to me because in my early career, I kind of had the same leadership in the first three roles. I mean, I do come with the benefit of an identical twin who’s a psychologist and who spent 23 years in mental health. And all of my friends are therapists, reflection therapists, CBT. So, you know, I don’t have the typical relationship. So, you know, when I meet up with my friendship circles, they ask me to reflect on things. And that’s not typical, right? So I have that advantage where I’ve learned along the way some core skills that you normally would have to pay for that I get for free. So I suppose, as I mentioned, ensuring that I always do the kind of check-in, check-out, the temperature check with the teams, that I ensure that my resilience and my energy levels match what I’m going to do. And therefore, you know, as you said, Sian, I am a mother of two young kids. I wear different hats. I’m a lecturer one month. Then I’m doing CIPS stuff for CIPS out in a different continent, etc. So I have to be adaptable, but I have to ensure that I check in on my own resilience. And what I don’t want to do is overstretch and let my own children down and then let the job down. So that kind of temperature check with myself has really been important in terms of visionary leadership. You know, Gareth, that I get really excited about legislation. I know it’s boring for you, but I get really excited about what’s coming up and how do I curate what we do and simulate what we have to do next. So, for example, the CSDDD EU legislation with supply chain, the one that kind of imposes stricter rules on how companies control environments and human rights impacts on businesses, etc. So that’s in play now and companies have to ensure that, so manufacturers have to ensure that they are reporting on these things. Now, this is going to make the world a better place. So, anything that’s going to improve the living standards for people is what I’m interested in, not only because I work for the NHS, but also as a professional, anything that will improve my team and how we live is really important to me. And I suppose for me, ensuring that I know about what’s coming up, not least because I have to lecture on it. So, I have to be always savvy about the law, about legislation, about new regs coming in. I always have to be on top of my game, but I always have to be looking forward. And I think that’s why opportunities have always come to me. And it’s always been progressive, not only because of SIPs and FSIPS, etc., because I’m always looking forward. But I always make sure I look behind to see if people are following me. There’s no point moving forward with nobody following you. So I’ve had to ensure that my leadership is compassionate, that I’m reflecting all the time, that I’m learning from mistakes and we’re learning together. We have these quality circles. We learn together. We move on. If we’re going to fail, we fail fast. You know, we fail fast. We move on. And failure is always something that’s inevitable. Yeah. But if we’re going to fail, we don’t take a year to fail. We try it. We move on. I suppose, Gareth, for you in your kind of CTO role, I don’t know if you have that principle about failure. If you’re going to fail, fail fast.

Gareth Burch – 00:27:43:

You have to, haven’t you? I think it’s early stages in my career. If you failed, that’s all bad. That’s like you’re in trouble. But now it’s accepted. It’s treated as that learning. And it’s definitely being influenced by more of that agile model. And like you said, fail fast. Fail fast. It’s acceptable to fail. We learn. We can go again. And you see that in sport as well. And that’s now coming across more and more areas. And that acceptance to fail. And I remember early on in my career, I was petrified of failure. Because I didn’t want to fail. And those people who know me, I’m very competitive. And I don’t like failure because I associate it with losing. But I have to then put it to the back of my mind. And go, actually failure is acceptable because it means I’m going to win overall. And you just then have to adjust your, like me, I’m able to adjust my perception. But I see now, I now see failure. Different to losing. So I’ve separated those two. So I’m still just as competitive, but I see failure as an opportunity to win through learnings. And yeah, years ago. Wouldn’t have put that in, but it would have gone absolutely no chance on failing.

Savita Mace – 00:29:11:

I like that. I’m going to put that failure as an opportunity to win on my door.

Sian Lloyd – 00:29:15:

Really interesting there, what you were both saying about failure, you’re approaching to that and learnings. And I think really, you know, in the early stages of any career, just perhaps thinking back to my own career in broadcasting, you know, that certainly was a concern of mine. What if I get something wrong? What if I fail? And along the way, I learned that you only do learn by those stumbles along the route. So that’s, I think, a really important point for us to all think about. And thanks so much for doing it so well. But Gareth, do you have to have managed risk? Is that important?

Gareth Burch – 00:29:50:

Yeah. So risk is absolutely, and measured risk is 100%, a huge focus of procurement. 10 years ago, risk was there, but not to the level it is today. And you start looking at the issues which have faced procurement over the last five years, from COVID through to the Russian-Ukraine and the supply chain issues from both being parked sideways. It’s not ideal. And these have had detrimental impacts to procurement functions, particularly manufacturing, the shipping, the logistics side of it. And it’s one where how do you successfully manage, track, and potentially identify ahead of time what these issues could be. I don’t think anyone could have predicted a boat being parked sideways in the canal. But some of the other stuff, like COVID, we started hearing about outbreaks sooner than we reacted. But then how do we flag that as an issue? I think from there to today, we’re in two different worlds, where actually now we start identifying that risk a bit sooner. We’re aware of that risk. And it’s just very much how we do more from a procurement perspective to mitigate risk, because our lives become much harder when a risk transitions to an issue. Savita, would you agree with that?

Savita Mace – 00:31:20:

I completely agree with that. And also, I think I like that you’ve said it’s really hard to predict what’s going to happen despite getting some data points from different places. So I think what’s helped me is that the connection I have with people in CIPS all over the world has helped me in probably all my jobs where the risk-based analysis. So in terms of the framework of how we identify risk, the assessment analysis, mitigation, etc. In terms of when we get down to supplier risk, I have always gone out to my peers all over the world and ask, what’s this commodity doing in the Middle East? What’s this commodity doing in South America? Because the demand curve or the volatility curve starts somewhere. It’s probably going to hit you up first or last. And I think that’s where my networks with CIPS come in. The people who I’ve met at conferences, the people that I mentor and coach and sponsor have also helped me. So I think the framework of how we analyze risk, obviously of how we kind of capture risk in the first place. It could be from fancy technology suites, or it could just be from your network, from real intelligence from the market. But that volatility curve, it’s really hard to predict. There are knowns and unknowns. But I think when it comes down to your stakeholders, the first thing they ask you about is supplier risk. What’s their financial standing? Are they going to go bust? How have you been monitoring them? What’s their first, second and third tier manufacturing looking like? So all of that risk has to be kind of compiled, monitored, mitigated, mitigation plan. But I think a lot of buying organizations, what we forget to do is we forget to communicate the risks to stakeholders. We forget to communicate the risks at each stage in terms of when we start capturing them, when they start being mitigated, how we’re mitigating it, and what’s the stakeholder’s role in helping us mitigate risk in terms of will they pivot to an outsource model? Will they pivot to a different piece of technology? So that kind of co-creation of risk mitigation and then reacting to what it actually happens is really, really important. So supplier risk and communication for me has been two real big learning points in my career and what we have to do now in health.

Gareth Burch – 00:33:49:

Savita, that’s really interesting because when you talk about the different data sources, the different touch points, the communication, and that continued communication through the process. How does technology help in that?

Savita Mace – 00:34:05:

It’s a really good question. Because I told you earlier about the oil and gas company and what they would do, you know, you’re going to calculate my age now, but what they would do is send me pieces of their catalogue, like their paper catalogue, and send me notes about what’s going to change and kind of tell me about potential volatility if it merges an acquisition for their company, etc. But in handwritten notes, sometimes with a post-it, they’d post it in a letter. So I had to type this up and put it into kind of one analysis for the head buyers, etc. Luckily, that’s no longer my life. And 20 years on, technology has played a massive role in how I, as a CPO, plan for what’s going to happen next. Technology has given me the ability to not only stay on top of due diligence, stay on top of risk-based decisions, commercial decisions that I have to make, but also it’s gives me the ability to store everything in one place. I don’t have to use paper anymore. I don’t have to use 15 different databases. Careful middleware in the background and algorithms prepare things for me about sentiment data that I don’t have to Google what CEOs are saying anymore. I have a piece of tech that’ll tell me that. So technology has changed things for me drastically and my teams in every company because we’ve wasted a lot of time doing that. So it saves me time. It saves me money, but I can hedge better. I know what to invest in and why. I may not know the ROIs right away, but the return on investment is higher when I make a more measured and calculated risk-based decision. Does that answer your question, Gareth?

Gareth Burch – 00:35:49:

No, it really does. And one of the interesting stats from the risk and resilience session I was speaking at, we asked a poll and 47% of participants who attended. Said they manage risk through Excel. And now you just start looking at it going. The number is obviously dramatically reduced from where it would have been to where it is today, but technology can play that vital point. Like you were alluding to summarizing data, giving you data to make calculated decisions. It’s a massive way, even to the point with no longer looking at catalogs and either having online catalogs or just that point and click methodology these days is unbelievable. And yeah, I was unfortunately never, never, I never got to use the Yellow Pages to look for suppliers. I’ve always been kind of a Google child, but it is one where. I don’t know how I would have done in my career. I don’t know how I could have… I could do without Google, if that makes sense, or other search engines of that type, because it gave me access very quickly, just Googling, supplies of a certain category. But you just think, how many people could we have missed back in the day? And then how much value do you leave on the table? It extends to the risk side. How do we know the risk? I was on a session this morning around AI, and we were talking about adverse media checking. Hang on, what? Hang on, somebody’s going to tell me when a supplier has been in the paper about something negative. Wow. This is stuff which might not affect my decision to work with them and continue working with them, but it would affect my decision on culturally, what does that mean? Because a lot of procurements I started doing towards, before I jumped ship, and a lot of them focused on alignment of cultures. We want to work with someone culturally similar to us. And then the adverse media then just allows you to identify and manage it. And these are things which they’re so powerful to procurement. And I think the more these get adopted, the more difficult it is for us to live without them, which would be, which is going to be really, really interesting.

Savita Mace – 00:38:26:

And, you know, you’re right about the sentiment data. What CEOs and leadership teams at companies say drives the share price. And it also drives either reputational risk in a good way or bad way. And as a buying company, in terms of a buying function, I do not want to align myself like you to companies that have really poor reputational risk and put themselves at risk all the time because either they’re aligning to the wrong culture, they say the wrong things on social media, or they just have allegiances to the wrong groups which are legally not allowed. And you find these stories all the time in Peter Smith’s bad buying book, for example. You find all of these examples about how do you use technology to protect you from all of those things? Because I’m harnessing the data and I remember evaluating Kraft’s sentiment data software. And they were using something like 400 different data points to give you one report in about two minutes. I can’t do that on pen and paper anymore. So yeah, so sentiment data and how it drives share price, how it drives what price we pay as buyers, it’s really important.

Sian Lloyd – 00:39:48:

And Gareth, I love you talking about the Yellow Pages. Unfortunately, I can remember the Yellow Pages and using the Yellow Pages quite often. And Savita, thank you so much for explaining how practically as well technology is helping you in your role, really with the day-to-day things as well as with a bigger picture. So that’s been absolutely fascinating. And I guess I do want to throw it forward a little bit at this stage in the podcast to the future and bring in particularly your role in mentoring and the lecturing. And I know that you’ve been involved with the module and the master’s at Durham University, really looking to the future generation of people who will be coming into this profession. How do you see that? How does it stand at the moment? And what are your hopes and aims for the future, really?

Savita Mace – 00:40:43:

That’s a loaded question. A lots of layers there, Sian. I suppose if I start with Durham University. So I am one of the industry experts for Durham Business School. And my role is to shape the executive masters for them. That’s relevant. That’s going to enhance the experience of whoever signs up to their course. But when they get back into the real world, they can use the principles. We know that we only use about 10% of the degrees we studied, right? If that. I shouldn’t say that because I do have an academic foot. So I shouldn’t say that. So I suppose for Durham University, the new executive Masters in procurement and supply chain will cover things like strategic influence and leadership, data sciences for business, sustainable supply chains, digital supply chains, using algorithms to simulate advanced risk and forecasting. And it’ll have a DEI element. So I help them shape their executive masters because I want leaders to come out well-rounded, not just learning hardcore technical things that Gareth and I learned in our master’s degree, but to come out with understanding how innovation drives a better business model, how leadership is really about how people feel about themselves in your presence, how simulation of investments that you’re going to make as a CPO, or just risk-based simulation. It’s critical to what to do next. So that’s my role at Durham. They call me an industry expert because what I want to do is make what people study very practical, but make sure that during the time of study, they get real skills that they can actually use when they go back to the workplace.

Sian Lloyd – 00:42:34:

So Savita, what key skills and traits do you think young people are going to need in the future in this profession?

Savita Mace – 00:42:42:

Young people. I mean, all people need it. The next generation into procurement and supply, Gareth is laughing. The next generation, they’re going to, some of the things I touched on, they’re going to have to come in with leadership skills that’s adaptable, that’s resilient, but also that’s people-centered. Technology is an enabler. It’s amazing, but it’s just the enabler. You have to come in with understanding that the processes that you put in place has to be able to be understood by who you are selling to, your customers, if you’re treating patients. So those skills with visionary leadership, with understanding that the triangle of people, process, tech is still a triangle that we have to listen to and we have to honor. I suppose, and the next generation is going to have to kind of listen to some of the things that Gareth talked about, which is diversity in skills, diversity in people. Sian, when I started, there were 4% of female leaders in procurement and supply, 4%. We get to 2010 to 2015, 15%. Today, we’re on 22% of female leaders. So, 20, 20 year career. And we get in some sectors, there’s up to 25% of women. I think as female leaders, we have to make sure we drop the ladder for others. We have to make sure just like what the leaders in AstraZeneca did for me, which is understood that I had a young baby and that I had to work. I had to bring myself to work and I had to ensure that my career and work life was balanced. And that’s what they did for me. And therefore, in my role, that’s what I’m going to do for other women and parents, men and women. Because if I don’t look up to you as an individual, if I don’t take care of your Mars, those high rock, you have needs, you’re not going to be productive. And people miss that. You know, we’re, we’re not, we’re not raising robots. We are humans. We have human needs. And I want people to bring their whole selves to work. I want, you know, when I retire someday, I want it to be 70% women in leadership. I know I’m biased. And that’s why I do all of the coaching. So I coach and I sponsor. And the difference between a sponsor and a coach is a sponsor opens doors. So I have a vast network and I open doors for other women. I talk to my network, but I make these women and men who I coach and sponsor accountable for their career progression. You know, nobody’s going to hand you anything for free. You’re accountable. And I say to them, you know, go to your CIPS branch meetings, be a volunteer, you know, keep on top of what’s coming up in technology and legislation, et cetera, but just stay tuned, you know, lean in a bit. So, to answer your question, that’s what I’m going to say to the next generation.

Sian Lloyd – 00:45:45:

And that’s absolutely inspiring, Savita. Your passion certainly comes through. And I know you’re doing so much great work in this area. It is about inspiring others, isn’t it? And it’s about being a role model, certainly. And I suppose on that point, I’d like to touch on your role with CIPS because you also very passionate about that as well.

Savita Mace – 00:46:06:

I am. Yeah. I suppose I forgot to say that, one of the skills that we talk about for generations is how to negotiate. I think, I wouldn’t rephrase it like that. I would say, I would tell young men and women, it’s not about negotiating. It’s about taking a position. What is your position on your own self-worth, on your own professional worth? So when I was interviewing for this role, I said to the NHS, I’m sorry, I’m a lecturer. You’re going to have to give me 20 days of teaching time. And this is very important, not only to me, but the standards that I leave behind. And I think they were quite shocked that somebody’s demanding time to help the standard. And they said yes. So I think it’s about really believing in what you believe in and really understanding when to ask and how to ask. And so my role at CIPS is I sit on a subcommittee of the CIPS board. And I am one of seven around the world. So I represent the UK. And I get to independently give my opinion and take on policy, fair access, pricing, the CIPS strategy. So as a standard, what are we doing for members, et cetera. And actually, I was recently really proud of, I went for a holiday to the Caribbean where I was brought up. And CIPS asked me to step in for one of my colleagues and host the first CPO conference. And that was a really, really great experience for me. Because I said to them, you’re my people. This is the people I grew up with. And we’re all CPOs in the room today. It was a great connection. 22 CPOs from all different industries, different sectors, et cetera, but just connecting. And I think CIPS as a standard, as a qualification, as a body, it’s been more than that for me. It’s truly what’s defined me as a professional. And hence, I give a lot of time for CIPS mentorship, for the FCIPS panel, for my role in the membership committee for the UK. Because it’s really important to me that even if you’re not a CIPS member or a CIPS qualified professional, and we’re not discounting your qualifications, even if you’re not there and you’re in procurement, I would say there is a place for you in this profession. You know, show up at a CIPS meeting in your county. It doesn’t matter if you don’t have a qualification in CIPS. But it’s a community. It’s a community that I feel really connected. It’s a community that’s helped me a lot in my career.

Gareth Burch – 00:48:44:

I’d agree with you. I, from memory, I was CIPS treasurer for the South Wales branch. And I wasn’t qualified. I was still studying, but it was trying to give my little bit for the profession, giving that little bit back. And I don’t think you can downplay the value of that membership CIPS have.

Savita Mace – 00:49:06:

And I think it’s really bizarre, but there’s a level of, maybe I’m being naive, but there’s a level of trust. So whenever I meet up with CIPS people, I met a Greek guy at the CIPS conference two years ago. And I was coincidentally going to be in Cyprus in the same town. And I met up with him there and his wife and his kids. We all had dinner because we’re both CPOs. And I think there’s, and I know Gareth feels this as well. There’s a kind of trust. I mean, obviously, when you’re a professional like us in terms of procurement and supply, Sian, you can’t have a criminal record. You could not have been involved in anything unethical. So there’s a baseline of ethics there, but it’s a real trusting community. So I meet up with strangers all the time in my profession, CPOs. We have a drink, we have a meal, and we chat about exactly what Gareth says. We chat about the same challenges we’re all going through to make commercial decisions for our company. And we help each other out in terms of intelligence, volatility, networks. Gareth and I met the CPO for Arsenal when we went to the awards. And we kind of negotiated our way into free tickets. No, we didn’t. But it’s these kind of, you know, it’s nothing to do with health, but he had the same challenges like us. So I think for me, it’s a really, really important platform and network.

Sian Lloyd – 00:50:30:

And it’s great to hear and understand so much about it. Thank you for sharing that with us. We are coming towards the end of the podcast. And it’s at this stage really, Gareth, isn’t it, that we like to ask the same final question to each of our guests. And, well, the reason that we do that is because we’re aware that there are some challenges in this profession, like so many others, around recruitment and retention. So we like to get a key message from the guest at the end. And, Gareth, I’m going to say over to you.

Gareth Burch – 00:51:00:

Thank you. Thank you, Sian. So, Savita, when you look back at the start of your career, why are you happy you went into procurement?

Savita Mace – 00:51:09:

That’s a great question, Gareth. I’m happy I went into procurement for a few reasons. One, I was a young girl in the Caribbean with no choices. It’s a third world country. Now it’s a developing country. But there’s a saying about where you born dictates where you end up. I don’t believe that’s true. Procurement gave me a global foot. I’ve been to more than 50 countries with my jobs. I am financially independent. I was financially independent at 25. And I don’t think any other career would have afforded me this as a woman. It’s been difficult in procurement because it’s always been a man’s world. But we’ve got very far. I mean, I because you’re in a buying position and the balance of power is tipped on your side. My gender didn’t matter. My accent didn’t matter. My skin color didn’t matter because I was the head buyer. So it gave me that kind of balance of power tipped on my side. But I mean, I feel really privileged for the people who’s helped me. When I came to England 23 years ago, I had a lot of support from people, strangers who helped me with advice, helped me with, you know, things about where to live, etc. And that’s the reason I made a decision to pay forward early in my career. Because that’s one of the legacy I want to leave behind. Did I help somebody? Could I have helped somebody in throughout my career that made a difference to their lives, that made a difference to their financial independence as woman, etc. And that’s the reason I think procurement and supply chain is the best profession ever.

Sian Lloyd – 00:52:41:

Well, that’s an amazing positive note to finish the podcast on. It’s been absolutely wonderful talking to you today, Savita. A true pleasure, hasn’t it, Gareth?

Gareth Burch – 00:52:52:

No, absolutely. And hopefully see you very soon.

Savita Mace – 00:52:56:

Thank you, Sian and Gareth. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you for inviting me to this podcast.

Gareth Burch – 00:53:02:

That wraps up this episode of Powering Procurement. We hope you enjoyed that as much as we did.

Sian Lloyd – 00:53:08:

Visit our website at atamis.co.uk or follow us on LinkedIn to continue the conversation.

Gareth Burch – 00:53:14:

Remember to subscribe on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you choose to listen.

Sian Lloyd – 00:53:21:

Thanks for joining us and see you next time on Powering Procurement.