Episode 4: Top Procurement Software Companies: Getting Ready for the Procurement Act 2023: What You Need To Know with Lisa Stubbs

Sian Lloyd – 00:00:02:

Hello and welcome to Powering Procurement, a podcast by Atamis, where we unpack the world of procurement and supply chain management with the help of leading experts. I’m your host, Sian Lloyd, and this is the Atamis resident expert, Gareth Burch.

Gareth Burch – 00:00:18:

With nearly 20 years of experience in procurement, I may be billed as the expert, but believe me, I’m here to learn too.

Sian Lloyd – 00:00:25:

Each episode with our expert guests will see us diving into the world of procurement, understanding the opportunities and challenges facing the sector.

Gareth Burch – 00:00:34:

And we’ll explore easy wins and longer-term strategies to help you rise to the challenge of driving value through your work while showing the power of procurement.

Sian Lloyd – 00:00:45:

So let’s get started. Welcome to Powering Procurement. Our guest today is Lisa Stubbs, the Head of Open and Transparent Contracting at the UK cabinet office. In this role, Lisa leads the development of procurement transparency policies and legislation, ensuring public procurement is more accessible and accountable. She has played a pivotal role in shaping the UK’s procurement regulations post-Brexit, contributing to the creation of a central transparency platform that will allow citizens, suppliers and public bodies to access vital information about how public contracts are awarded and managed.

Gareth Burch – 00:01:31:

Lisa brings over a decade of experience in procurement with deep expertise in both policy and operational roles. She’s previously worked with the Crown Commercial Services, where she led key initiatives to deliver value for the taxpayer through strategic procurement partnerships. She’s a passionate advocate for open contracting and data standards in public procurement. Welcome, Lisa.

Lisa Stubbs – 00:01:55:

Thanks, Sian. Thanks, Cara.

Sian Lloyd – 00:01:56:

It’s great to welcome you to the podcast, Lisa. And we’d love to hear a little bit more about you to start with, because I know that your career in public procurement has been both diverse and very impactful as well. But where did it all begin? What drew you into procurement in the first place?

Lisa Stubbs – 00:02:16:

Well, it’s an interesting story, actually, Sian. I’m not sure that I ever set out to become a procurement professional. I actually came to public procurement at the end of the 90s. And I came in through a telecoms route. So I had been configuring telecoms switches, as they were in the day. They had to be designed and actually built. They weren’t digital. And I saw an opportunity in a newspaper, as it was at the end of the 90s, to go work at what was then the Central Computer and Telecoms Agency on a thing called a Framework, which was a government telecommunications contract. And so I applied and got the job. And my career has changed considerably since those paper-based days in the late 90s. And I actually moved into the Office of Government Commerce as roles developed before taking a career break, where I strangely retrained in horticulture. But I can say I have been in SME who worked with housing associations. So I do understand that perspective as well. At the end of my career break, I went back to what had become Crown Commercial Service, and I worked on frameworks and contracts before I saw an opportunity to go and work with other procuring organisations in partnership. A movement of government change saw me move into the cabinet office, and then, of course, we saw Brexit. I discovered transparency as a niche part of procurement completely by chance through this period, working on a green paper for the act. And I like to think that through my career, I bring a view as both being a practitioner, I’ve been the supplier, the SME, and of course, I am a citizen too. So I am passionately an advocate for value and innovation in procurement as well as transparency.

Gareth Burch – 00:04:02:

Lisa, expanding on your current role, what gives you the most fulfilment? And how do you see it? Staying motivated in driving such large and complex changes in an ever-evolving environment.

Lisa Stubbs – 00:04:14:

So I find procurement, particularly the role that I have, to be one of such creativity and problem solving. I mean, we work within an international framework, the World Trade Organization Agreement on Government Procurement. But it still allows us to be innovative and efficient and create bottom up changes. It’s quite a unique environment, really. So you work in a community, it’s quite a small community as well, of public procurement practitioners. So there is this sense of community and of working together. And I get quite excited about that because I do enjoy that feeling of belonging and I do enjoy the innovation that comes with that.

Sian Lloyd – 00:04:55:

That’s great to hear about that sense of community as well, Lisa. I guess to get to perhaps some of the meat now of the Procurement Reform Act, you know, we’re absolutely. Delighted that you’re here with us at this, you know, quite important time, really, isn’t it, for the sector? And it’s certainly been described as one of the biggest overhauls of public procurement in recent history. So to be able to have a conversation with you about it is absolutely brilliant. Could you, first of all, perhaps just talk us through some of the strategic vision behind the act?

Lisa Stubbs – 00:05:33:

Yes, of course. So as I alluded to earlier, we do operate within an international framework for procurement, the WTO GPA. And we did set out a green paper. It seems more recent, but it is actually a few years ago now, which had a very bold vision that was set by ministers at the time. And we were looking for those bold, innovative efficiencies whilst also meeting government strategic policies. So we did this by bottom-up change, going out and I personally spent, it was almost a year, talking to that practitioner community, talking to suppliers and understanding the day-to-day problems that they faced, understanding what they wish to be able to do and trying to connect together all of those parts. So you’ve got on one hand the practitioner community and the suppliers who are using this system, this procurement system. You’ve also got the kind of the citizen voice, if you like, the civil society who hold tension in what’s good and what’s right and what effective looks like in many ways. And so tying that into this international framework alongside ministerial wishes meant that we could be quite bold and visionary because we did have a good range of diverse stakeholders telling us their needs. So we were, I think, very inclusive when this bold vision was set out. And it was always designed to be a generational change. You know, this act is a framework for public procurement and it is designed in a way that allows it to change and evolve over time. So really, regarding the go large in February, it is a beginning. No, it’s a moment when something starts. It’s not a moment of total delivery. And we can continue to grow and bring more on stream. Indeed, there are notices in the act that won’t be used in February that will come on stream over the coming months, as we build confidence and as procurement itself evolves. So the act itself is a vehicle that reflects government policy and it has that vision at the heart of it. So an example of that would be the National Procurement Policy Statement, which is a statement set out by the government of their policy priorities. And those are reflected into legislation and sit at the heart of the Procurement act. And the act is built in such a way that successive governments can set out their own priorities and those can be incorporated into our day-to-day procurement activity. Of course, I come at this from a world now of Transparency and data. And the data and the measurement of policy is a very natural thing to do because we’re going to be pushing improvements through policy because of the data that we are collecting because of this act. So it is quite a circular, quite a conversation actually when you start to look at it.

Gareth Burch – 00:08:39:

And I’ve got to be fair, from an e-sender perspective, you’re able to see what you’re trying to achieve as well through to improving the procurement process, adding the ability adding a bit more flexibility in it while maintaining transparency And that almost that introduction of that, the central digital platform and that single consolidation of data, not just for the end procurement user, but just for all the suppliers out there who have to answer the same questionnaire for every country individually every time. It’s definitely something really exciting. And I know I speak frequently with cabinet office from the East Ender perspective, and you can see come February what this will look to deliver. And it is obviously very much like you said, it’s the initial delivery. There’s two further phases to follow. It’s revolutionary, to be honest. And if public sector adopt this correctly… Work towards this. I think procurement is, it sets procurement up for great success within the public sector.

Sian Lloyd – 00:09:53:

Great to get your thoughts on that as well, Gareth. And thank you, Lisa, for explaining that to us. Just picking up, actually, you did mention the go-live date. And I know that originally the act had the go-live date, didn’t it, for October the 28th. And now there was a change in government, and now it’s go-live on February 2025. Just interested to know, what do we know so far about perhaps the new government’s reasons for the change in the go-live date?

Lisa Stubbs – 00:10:22:

Well, it’s an interesting point, moment, for you to ask that question. The date change has been all about the National Procurement Policy Statement. So we were in Parliament, it does seem like years ago now, and I guess it was more than a year ago that we were in Parliament with the act, but we did have quite a lot of support from all sides of the House for this act, for this piece of legislation. And I suppose it’s natural that an incoming administration that started in July would wish to reflect their own mandate and policies in a piece of legislation that is due to be launched. Now, because of timing, of course, then coming in in July and there being recess, it was necessary to delay the start of February to take full account of their policies and mandate. Now, I’m not going to dwell too much on what’s on NPPS. It is at consultation at the moment. It is published, it is live, and it’s… We’d really welcome, actually, people going along, having a look at NPPS, commenting and giving us their feedback on what it contains. I mean, there’s going to be ongoing work on NPPS at both a user and a kind of a procurement community level. And we continue to engage with our wonderful crown reps to ensure that the voices of all of the procurement community, suppliers and the procurers, get reflected in NPPS. We’ll still support the mandate of the government.

Gareth Burch – 00:11:56:

Lisa, given the new political landscape, have there been any shifts in balance between regulatory oversight and economic growth initiatives, particularly in how the new government views procurement’s role in driving economic recovery?

Lisa Stubbs – 00:12:11:

So it’s very early days, isn’t it? We have a government that’s been here since July. We are reformulating the NPPS. And I think we are starting to understand what those policies would look like through the consultation. And I think as we near the end of that consultation, we will all understand more about how NPPS will be reflected into the regulation and what it will actually detail and contain.

Sian Lloyd – 00:12:39:

Thanks so much, Lisa, for taking us through those steps so far. Let’s perhaps turn now to competitive flexible procedure designed to give contracting authorities more tailored approaches to tendering. How exactly will this change perhaps improve the long-term dynamics of public procurement in terms of, I suppose, what innovation and also supplier diversity?

Lisa Stubbs – 00:13:06:

Thank you. I guess that’s the big question, isn’t it? Is how flexible or how flexibly will the competitive flexible procedure be used? So during that early research phase that I talked about earlier, it became very clear that what practitioners wanted was the ability to use their professional skills in markets that they knew most about, buying things that they understood more clearly than anybody else, to be able to use. Much more flexibility in the method of procurement and the way things were bought. And so competitive flexible procedure allows the practitioner to design a procurement and write it down to describe the process that must be followed. And the requirement then at a simple level is that they follow those instructions that they have written for themselves. So this really does create a huge space for innovation. And it allows procurement professionals to really use all of the skills that they have, at their fingertips, to drive value and benefits through procurement. Of course, there is a significant need for training because this is a new approach to procurement. And so we have created massive amounts of training. So there are communities of practice so that people are training each other. There is lots of learning and development. So we have online e-learning. We have had deep dives. There are many workshops that we run. There is a whole range of guidance. There are help desks. And we continue to work with the practitioner to support them as they explore all of the potential of the competitive flexible procedure. From a personal perspective, I’m really interested to see how people choose to innovate with this because there is so much opportunity to build different methods that we might not quite have conceived of before. So it’s waiting to see how the power of this is going to be harnessed by a community of professionals. And I think that’s a really important step for us as professionals to get the best possible outcomes for the communities and the services that they’re buying.

Gareth Burch – 00:15:12:

The benefit of competitive flexible is clearly there. But how do you manage some of the risk which comes with it from a regulatory perspective through potentially inconsistency or just general misuse from contracting authorities?

Lisa Stubbs – 00:15:30:

That’s where we start to talk about professionalism isn’t it and it’s where we start to talk about skills and capability so procurement professionals i mean they are professional people we have qualifications and there is extensive training and so it’s it’s right that these people are given the flexibility to be able to design procurement within a framework you know there is a good framework of regulation that explains things that they must have regard to or or things that are duties within the regulation but that they can set out the correct processes to be followed in that procurement i think the risk in competitive flexible in the future that you mentioned of inconsistency and such it’s the same one as exists today perhaps it’s expressed a little bit differently but we really must celebrate how professional procurement specialists are and allow them to do their jobs in the best way for them and their own organizations

Sian Lloyd – 00:16:30:

And Lisa, what support have contracting authorities been given so far?

Lisa Stubbs – 00:16:35:

Yeah, as I mentioned, there is a huge amount of training has been available. Most of it is tailored quite closely to the group that it targets. So we have had deep dives where communities of practitioners have worked together to understand better. We’ve had quite high level training. There is a very comprehensive raft of e-learning, and I think that’s ranking into the thousands of completions. There’s a lot of celebration about the certification that comes with some of the L&D, with many posts on LinkedIn, with people saying that they are neuro-certified, which is always quite exciting. And it does build that feeling of community. So I personally speak at a community of practice that meets every week, I believe they meet. And that group is… Is extraordinary in that you have procurement professionals working to support each other in answering questions. And that’s what I was talking about, this feeling of community that comes from public procurement through the practitioners. It’s a group that is close. It is a small group, and we do work together to understand problems and challenges and how we can overcome them. So I think actually the February Go Live is the beginning, and I think we’re all going to be learning for a few years about the the potential of things like competitive flexible and how dynamic markets, for example, will operate in the future, and how frameworks could best be harnessed under the new act. A lot of that is going to come from practitioners pushing innovation to see what’s possible and how many gains they get from it.

Gareth Burch – 00:18:16:

Is there potential that innovation could, without the correct safeguards, innovation could lead to consequences? Obviously, innovation is key for the success and the ongoing success. But sometimes I remember working with a guy who used to tell me, in order to break the rules, you’ve got to know the rules. And it was very much meant in a different way to a regulatory perspective. But it is one where you start thinking of that innovation side. And if people aren’t fully aware of the full details of the regulations and the policy, could that inadvertently create issues for what the Procurement act is trying to achieve?

Lisa Stubbs – 00:19:04:

That’s a really interesting perspective. I think there are other procedures set out in the act for people who are perhaps less confident in using that innovation. And I think you’re right, with innovation, there comes responsibility and you do have to follow those rules, but there is an amount of tension that comes with the regulation. So there is a review unit that oversees procurement. My personal perspective is one of transparency, of course, which is a fantastic antiseptic. As soon as you start to publish information about how an organisation or a procurement is behaving and the decisions they’re making for everybody to see, it holds tension in performance. And so people are much more likely to ask questions if they can see what’s happening. And that is the gift that the transparency through the act brings. It is the counterweight in many ways to the flexibilities that come from competitive flexible procedure.

Sian Lloyd – 00:20:00:

That’s really interesting, Lisa, because we wanted to come on to transparency because it really is a core theme, isn’t it, throughout this act. But it would be great to get a sense of what balance is being struck between transparency and complexity for public bodies here.

Lisa Stubbs – 00:20:18:

I can understand where that question comes from, Sian. And it’s a conversation I have had several times over recent years, in fact. So the notices in the act are, effectively, the method of bringing transparency. So contracting authorities will be publishing notices that contain information about procurement, about decisions and about suppliers that they work with. Now, that is being extended into the act through the life cycle of procurement. So it’s not just about competing and making a decision. The transparency actually builds on into the contract life cycle. So we will learn more about the performance of contracts, how contracts change and evolve. Indeed, how much money is spent through payment recording, so that by the time we come to the final notice in the chain, we’ll have a really good picture of what’s happened. Now, of course, when you put all of those notices in a pile, it does look like quite a big pile in some ways. However, you don’t have to use all of the notices in every situation. So we’ve created a lot more flexibility in how notices are used. And we’ve really harnessed, the ability for digital means to deliver better solutions. So in the act and in the regulations, we have regulated for compliance, but we haven’t talked at all about how that is delivered, thereby leaving space for a lot of innovation to come through digitally through e-sender companies who are really best placed to be able to take new technologies to create workflow and streamlining and to really deliver a great service to the people who are bringing that transparency to the central digital platform. So the central digital platform is vital. And its job is to be the place where notices are published. So the notices are effectively just a mechanism to collect data that shows what is happening in a procurement system. And so the way that transparency is designed means that we have taken, an internationally recognized data structure in the Open Contracting Data Standard. We have set out clearly what will be in a compliant notice. We’re allowing contracting authorities to publish using the best technology that they want to invest in using through the e-senders. And we bring that data to the central digital platform in a way that it is clearly displayed. It is searchable. It is usable. And it really tells a story about the decisions that to be made  in public procurement  not just the procurement decision  but of course throughout the life cycle  so transparency is going to be really really important  in understanding  how effective our procurement  systems are  decisions that we made  incorporate with payment information  what we coming  strain  in lay to month as I said  this is  incremental  delivery. I think we’re going  to start to really  understand  things about public procurement.

Gareth Burch – 00:23:30:

I think the transparency from an e-sender perspective is actually quite helpful. It sounds bizarre. It’s one, from an e-sender world, working with public sector organizations, everyone has a slightly different view of how things should be done. And this even comes down to data structures, as you alluded to. What this is allowing personally for Atamis to do is actually revisit and re-categorize our structure to make sure we’re all using the same structure going forward. And that gives us almost a baseline, particularly, which we can build out from. So when you start looking at our sourcing, we’re looking through to, as you rightly said, the full lifecycle, the contract management. What are the key data structures we need to report on? As the warmest part of our minimum product offering for public sector. And… We’ve not had that previously because everyone is slightly different, even to the ability, how they used to want to post notices in the current regulation. In the new world, it’s given us almost an ability to reset a bit, align to the data structure and standardize across all our public sector clients, which is fantastic for us because it has a positive impact to our maintenance, our support. And when we’re updating client systems. It’s right for every client. So the transparency from an e-sender perspective is… It’s probably more valuable than any of us have probably ever told you, because I know within our conversations, it’s all about the project plans. And it’s one where actually when you reflect on it and that end-to-end life cycle. Suddenly we have a much better structure. One of the things I’ve put in place now is the new notices and the data structures. They’re standardized features with no configuration and no changes because we’re not going to accept them because we’re aligning with the cabinet office structure and the data structure as part of our product going forward. And every time our clients see our system, yes, it will look different to cabinet office, but the data all aligns, which then means anything in the future which comes from innovation or just general change, it’s easy for us to adapt as well and deliver to all our clients. So I think there’s a lot of positivity around that transparency and what’s coming out of it as well, which again, we don’t often shout about.

Sian Lloyd – 00:26:21:

Well, let’s take a look at one of the other objectives of the act now, which is to broaden the range of suppliers, isn’t it? And particularly SMEs and social enterprises, which is really interesting. What are the most critical changes that are introduced by the act that’s actually going to enable this to be possible?

Lisa Stubbs – 00:26:41:

Crucially, SMEs are described on the face of the act. There is a duty to have regard to SMEs right up front. First thing that you see regarding SMEs in the act. So from a transparency perspective, we are asking suppliers who register to share their details through the central digital platform to describe how they see themselves and how they identify as an SME or a VCSE or such. And then we will be able to measure because we know who they are. We can identify them and we know that they’re SMEs. And so because we have more data about both procurement and contract management, we are better able to understand the experience of the SME just from transparency and data. So that’s my second SME point. There is a duty to consider lots in the act. So very often a barrier to SMEs is just the scale of public procurement. So we buy some really big things and it needs to be chopped into smaller pieces to make it accessible to SMEs. So there is a duty in the act to divide into lots. We’re creating more visibility earlier. SMEs have told us that they really welcome the opportunity to prepare, to have conversations and to decide what business they want to bid for. And the key thing that they need is advance warning. And so by asking for pipeline notices to be published. For example, and the usual preliminary market engagement notices and notices of plan procurement as appropriate, we are giving SMEs and VCSEs the best possible chance to understand what is going to be coming from a tendering perspective. We have made a requirement that their insurance does not have to be in place when you’re bidding as an SME. So that means that SMEs can go and bid and win business before they have to make investment on such a thing. Things as insurers that can be quite expensive for them. And we’ve also removed the requirement for pre-qualification questionnaires in low value procurement, ensuring that they can get through those first rounds. And probably the most important thing, I think, having been that SME is the 30 day payment terms. So we’re going to be publishing data on how contracting authorities perform in payment terms. So that coupled with early pipeline information. And I think that the fact that SMEs are going to have good information that allows them to target particular procurements, understanding the effect that could have on their cash flow, because they understand how that contracting authority is paying the bill. There is a lot for SMEs in this act. Having been one, I really celebrate that.

Gareth Burch – 00:29:29:

So as we’ve said throughout, we’ve talked about technology. It’s a reoccurring thing. And we touched on the central digital platform earlier, but it’d be great to get the views of the cabinet office on the focus on technology and the emphasis on leveraging technology and digital platforms as part of the new Procurement Reform act.

Lisa Stubbs – 00:29:51:

Thank you, Steve. The central digital platform is, of course, quite key to the delivery of the Procurement act. And this isn’t new to us in the cabinet office because, of course, we already run Find a Tender service, which exists to publish notices under their current regulations. And so what we’re doing is we are taking that gov.uk service and all of the digital solution that sits underneath that and we’re building upon it. So noticing data will be published on the central digital platform. It isn’t a tendering platform. I think that’s really important to set out. That tendering happens elsewhere. The noticing data will be published, and that is public data. So anything that is put into a notice and sent to the central digital platform will be publicly available. It is possible for contracting authorities, where necessary, to withhold data to protect both commercial sensitivity or national security. There are opportunities here to protect those things that should be protected, but other things that are put into notices will all be published. There is an extensive user engagement this work. I mean, Find a Tender service is already a well-established brand. It’s well known by our users, and we have engaged with them over the previous couple of years as we’ve started to build out from FTS to create the central digital platform. So you may ask what’s different. Well, there are entirely new components that we haven’t had before in this digital platform. Probably the most exciting one of those is the registration and supplier information aspects. So we will be asking contracting authorities to have all of their suppliers, this is through the regulation, to have their suppliers register. They will be given a unique identifier, which is new, and to issue their supplier information, their core information. I think, Harry, you described, didn’t you, about suppliers having to input the same information over and over and over and over again into a multitude of different platforms. Well, this supplier information record in Find a Tender service means that they will have to do it far less often. So they come in and register and input all of that core information, and then they share it across multiple tendering opportunities, reducing the burden for them, so there will be far less data input for them on those topics. That information is private information. It is shared only with the contracting authority that will view it and use it to make procurement decisions. Inside of Find a Tender, it is then turned into noticing information, which is pushed through e-sender systems and published. So those interested parties who want to see what’s happening in public procurement can do so through free and open access to the central digital platform to see what decisions are being made and what data is being shared. To give you some idea of how rigorous we are being with the central digital platform, we are actually starting an extended period of… Of private beta testing from, I think it’s Monday of next week, that runs for many weeks. It’s quite a structured plan, and we will be working with both e-senders and regular users of the service and some suppliers to do proper, detailed end-to-end testing to make sure that every aspect of that platform is doing what it needs to be doing, ready for go live in February.

Sian Lloyd – 00:33:20:

So Lisa, what specific key indicators or metrics, you know, will you be keeping an eye on? Over the next few years to really engage the success of this act?

Lisa Stubbs – 00:33:31:

Very short, Sian. I think there are a range of policy measures. I mean, we already do measure policy. So we look very hard at SME, we look at social value. There’s so many policies that we can monitor better as a result of the data that’s coming in. And I think the story of those policies will change as we learn the effect that it’s having both on procurement and markets and such. I think probably the most important feature of measurement here is how open and accessible that measurement will be. So we are looking at the moment at dashboards and how we can present data to show performance in a range of different topics, depending on the person that is looking for information. So performance management in public procurement is all about the cabinet office. It’s also about civil society and the citizen, and it’s about the person who wants to know what their local council has been deciding to do in public procurement. And the central digital platform dashboards ultimately will allow them to see the performance that they want to measure. And I think that’s where the power of this actually lies, is opening data to allow people to ask the questions that hold the performance tension in a way that is so far removed from what we do today, it’s going to be almost unrecognizable in so many ways. And even just looking at the range of information that will be available. So if you start to look at payment data and how contracts end, people will be able to ask better questions of their local authorities or of government because we are talking about an entire public sector here. So if you were interested in your local housing association, you would be able to look at data relating to the decisions that they make. And so actually, I think it was it’s a good question. It. We should also look at it from a lens of the other people that can look at this data who are also interested in how services are delivered and what procurement decisions are made because it actually affects them directly in their day to day lives as citizens.

Sian Lloyd – 00:35:40:

It’s been absolutely fascinating, Lisa, chatting with you over the course of this podcast. And obviously you’re so knowledgeable. You’re really at the heart of things there. It’s where it’s all happening. And we could talk forever on this, but unfortunately, our time is drawing to a close. So we have a couple of final questions. We’d love to ask you one of them being the same one we asked all of our guests, but I’m going to hand over to Gareth with his final question first.

Gareth Burch – 00:36:04:

Lisa, as someone who has played a pivotal role in shaping the future of public procurement, what is the legacy you hope that Procurement Reform act will leave behind in the next decade? 

Lisa Stubbs – 00:36:15:

I think the legacy that we have created for the future, if you like, is that we will be more digital in public procurement, both in how we deliver it, how we think about it and how we measure it. So I think we’re going to be more transparent. I think we’ll be able to make better decisions because of the learning that we get from transparency. And I actually think there’s an international perspective here as well. So we work in the cabinet office with a range of international partners. So, for example, the OECD and groups with an international perspective, like the Open Contracting Partnership, who are the custodians of OCDS. Now, those things continue to change. Because that’s the nature of the world we live in. And so I think we will see more impact between the decisions that we make in public procurement and how we evolve through things like OCDS and in conversations with our international partners as time goes on. And I think the legacy is that the digital environment that we’re creating really supports and facilitates that. By creating commonality, like you were saying, things are structured in the same way, which means that we can have better conversations with other people who also structure things in the same way. And I think that’s a really good legacy. I’m actually really excited about the next decade to see how this plays out. What the effect of the Procurement act is. And look back to see if we were absolutely as digital as we could be all the way through.

Sian Lloyd – 00:38:00:

And a personal question. The final one, Lisa. What makes you glad that you did choose a career path in procurement?

Lisa Stubbs – 00:38:07:

I’m still not sure it was a choice, Sian. I think I fell into this completely by accident. But that’s the story of most procurement professionals. It’s not a profession you learn about in school. So I’m really excited about public procurement. It’s innovative. It’s commercial. It’s got a legislative flavour. We deliver better services to people as a result of it. There is a fantastic community. And do you know what? This is a great place to be. This is a community that is not scared to improve and change. And that’s a wonderful thing to be part of. And it is such a privilege. I get quite passionate about my role in public procurement and working with others to improve how we do what we do. Well, you may not have chose it, but you’ve certainly stuck with it.

Sian Lloyd – 00:38:50:

Lisa, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s been an absolute delight.

Gareth Burch – 00:38:54:

Thank you, Lisa. That wraps up this episode of Powering Procurement. We hope you enjoyed that as much as we did.

Sian Lloyd – 00:39:02:

Visit our website at atamis.co.uk or follow us on LinkedIn to continue the conversation.

Gareth Burch – 00:39:08:

Remember to subscribe on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you choose to listen.

Sian Lloyd – 00:39:15:

Thanks for joining us and see you next time on Powering Procurement.